fuck this shit.

[rockinhamburger]

i'm done.

i've tried to ignore the fuckery over at aianonlovefest. i love writing and reading fic here in the fandom, and i'll continue to do so, but not at the meme. i am so fucking sick of the asshattery and the wank and the misogyny (from a mostly female fanbase; what the fuck!?), and i just can't do it anymore. it makes me feel physically sick when i see the fucked-up, sexist, awful insinuations about one of the only heavily featured women in the fandom.

what does it say about our community that kris' fictive infidelity is celebrated and lauded while katy's written out because she's in the way of kris and adam's kinky sex and true love? what is with this desire to write katy negatively? why can't she be awesome? is it so hard to imagine kris marrying a kick-ass woman? is it so hard to keep her kick-ass while still writing about potential feelings between kris and adam? in effect, she becomes a caricature of a woman, a plot device (if that!), while the men get all the spotlight, as usual. instead of keeping her in-character with the woman who stood by her boyfriend and supported him and encouraged him to go after his dream even when he had given up on it himself, she's often written as a vindictive, jealous, passive-aggressive bitch who only cares about her status as kris allen's wife. which is just fucking STUPID, because THAT'S NOT WHO SHE IS, and don't fucking tell me it is!

i almost wish i didn't care about any of this. it makes me tremble with anger when i see comments inferring or outright stating that katy is a bitch. do we have comments calling adam a 'fag'? fuck no! because that's a horrible, demeaning, homophobic, insulting word that we would never ascribe to someone we respect and care about. so why is 'bitch', a horrible, demeaning, sexist, insulting word, being used to describe katy, someone i respect and care about? FOR FUCK'S SAKE, we're almost exclusively women! when we call each other bitches, we only make it okay for men to call us that. you know, just for being in the way.

sometimes i suspect this attitude is induced by jealousy. katy has a lot going for her, and so people want to bring her down and make her into someone who doesn't deserve all the good in her life. FUCK THAT NOISE! why aren't we building each other up instead of putting each other down? why aren't we supporting and writing about these women? why don't we include katy in our fic as more than a piece of furniture, or a growth that needs to be removed?

fucking hell, WHY can't she join in the fun??

-

so i'm not going to be around the lovefest anymore. you can always find me right here, or by PM, and i'll still participate in challenges and post my fanfiction when i write it. and i'm sorry if you're disappointed that i'm leaving, but this is important to me and i can't just let it go. i'm not sorry if this post angered or offended you. i mean every word.

Comments

[iamsupernova.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure this is present in all RPF. In bandom, there is a FUCKLOAD of wife/girlfriend-bashing just because, like you said, they get in the way of Dude 1 and Dude 2's (sometimes more) ~*ONE TRUE MANLOVE*~. People can't seem to understand that this AWESOME GUY who we like enough to write fic about isn't awesome enough to fall in love with a woman. There's a lot of heterophobia in slash fandom from people who are silly enough to consider GUY LOVE more "real" than het. (Also: "het" is often labeled as a kink. And sometimes a warning! WHAT.) I mean, understandably, if you're writing/reading slash, you really like male/male pairings, but since the overwhelming majority of fandom are female, usually heterosexual (although there is a huge number of lesbians in bandom, a primarily slash fandom, which I think is awesome and hilarious). And there's a lot of internalized misogyny and sexism, which is pretty fucking upsetting. But luckily there are a lot of really amazing, smart, non gender-faily writers in bandom and it's not only total wankbrains. In my opinion, these awesome guys are clearly into these ladies because these ladies are also awesome! And it's great when we can get to "know" the wives and write/read fic about them, because hey, guess what? They are awesome!

[rockinhamburger.livejournal.com]

Oh, totally! You're right, this is a problem in most fandoms. In the Star Trek fando, women bash Uhura for 'making out with Spock' on the lift (~~~forcing her feminine emotions on to him in his time of turmoil~~~) or for "being a bitch" to Kirk throughout the movie (~~~omg she didn't roll over and pant at his attempts to seduce her; what a fucking slut!~~~). And I remember back in the days of Harry Potter fandom, Ginny constantly got torn apart for being kick-ass (~~~wahhhh she's such a mary-sue; she too good at everything; she's slutty; she doesn't take anyone's bullshit, she's so fucking UPPITY~~~). And this all happens while heaping praise on the male characters who do the very same thing, but it's okay because THEY'RE MEN, they're allowed; obvi. women should shut the fuck up and be docile, and don't you give any lip to your man, BETCH!

And you're right, it does help to find positive, awesome portrayals of women in our fandoms. It helps to know not everyone's carrying internalized misogyny and sexism. It really does. But I do need a break from the bullshit in that specific community, probably for good. As you so rightly said, there are places in fandom to find good stuff, so I'm gonna keep doing that instead of frothing at the mouth over one place.

But, ugggggh it's such a piss-off!

Thanks for the comment, hon!

[thecomfychair.livejournal.com]

this is basically why I got out of the fannish portion of Kris/Adam. I still read it every now and then, but the constant Katy-demeaning from certain sections of the fandom just drove me nuts.


Though like the comment above me, this is really a problem inherent in most slash-based fandoms. It just pings me in AIRPS, maybe because it is RPS and its a real person, I don't know.

[rockinhamburger.livejournal.com]

This is basically why I got out of the fannish portion of Kris/Adam. I still read it every now and then, but the constant Katy-demeaning from certain sections of the fandom just drove me nuts.

Clearly, I very much understand that decision! It is a problem is most slash comms, yep, but it really bothers me in RPS. These are real people, as you say. It makes me uncomfortable and angry. Obviously, lol!

Thanks for commenting and giving your input :)

[iamashamed.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, I don't agree that it happens in all RPF fandoms, like the person above said, because in FNFF I haven't seen any spouse bashing (luckily) but maybe it depends on how big the fandoms are, the more misogyny? Idk.

[rockinhamburger.livejournal.com]

You're right, I actually find the Fakenews RPS community to be VERY respectful of the women in that fandom. Rachel's an obvious example, of course, but Jon and Stephen's wives also well-written. Rarely have I seen them portrayed as horrible bitches. Which is good, because I bet Tracey and Evelyn are freaking amazing women, and I feel such a weird kinship with them because they're in love with and married to utterly amazing men that I'm kinda in love with and wish I were married to. Plus, Jon and Stephen love them, so they MUST be cool.

So, yeah, the sexism and misogyny doesn't happen in every fandom, but it does happen in many, and it's, to put it mildly, unfortunate!

[chosenfire28.livejournal.com]

OMFG TEARS IN MY EYES I LOVE YOU SO MUCH RIGHT NOW!!!!

This entire post is made of so much awesomeness. This is one of my issues~ in the AI fandom, I have read basically Katy bashing fics and enjoyed them but when Katy is written in character I think that's when I go from enjoying to downright ADORING.

This is Kris Allen, he is amazing, so it stands to reason he made an equal amazing person. This is the woman that worked while her husband stayed at home and played in bars, even when he went on Idol she was still working because if it didn't pan out they still needed support. He has grown up with her, she's like his best friend, so the bitch characterzation makes no sense at all.

So prompts you say, I really don't think there are enough Katy/Kris/Adam fics in fandom, maybe something along the lines of Kris being sick and stubborn, and Katy and Adam working together to take care of him :D

I can think of more, I really can if you need any.

[rockinhamburger.livejournal.com]

OH BABY YOU PUT TEARS IN MY EYES! YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW MUCH I NEEDED TO HEAR THAT! I LOVE YOU ~~~TOO!

Kris Allen IS amazing, and so is Katy. She actually volunteered to stay in the background if it would help his chances during Idol for Kris to appear single. Now that is sacrifice! I don't know if I could fucking do that! She's BAD-ASS, and it's so frustrating and lame when people say she isn't, or write her without that spunk and sacrifice and LOVE. Kris and Katy are, as you say, BEST FRIENDS, and have been for YEARS. They love each other; it makes no sense to bash Katy when Kris so clearly loves her.

*sigh* I hate bullshit.

Yeeees! I love Katy/Kris/Adam. I'm totes gonna write some now! :D

[constancedobler.livejournal.com]

I think that you're right about the misogyny--and misogyny is so ingrained in our society. Somehow, it is still acceptable to use words like "bitch," where racially or religiously-based slurs are not. It is still ok on some level to hate women, gays and overweight people (that last one's a whole other rant) and unfortunately, women are just as guilty as men about this. I think it is a competition thing for certain women (and middle school girls :) ). Why this plays out in fandom, I don't know, since the pairings are primarily slash. Maybe it is a threat to the slash--after all, I think that gay men are attractive to straight women partly because they are nonthreatening. (There's nothing more comforting--or more of a guilty pleasure-- than attention from someone you think is attractive who has no interest in you).

I am really all right with Katy just being sort of written out--the Allen's real life relationship puts a monkey wrench in the machine of those who like their slash simple--and I think that's ok--it is escapism, after all, and RPF is FICTION.

By the time I saw this, I think the most offensive of the posts must have been deleted--I saw a few screened posts--but where it crosses the line for me is when it starts speculating on the REAL motivations and actions of REAL people--especially in a fiction meme.

Relationships are hard, they're messy, and no one is perfect. I do not envy either Kris or Katy being put under the microscope in their first year of marriage. I am in the ninth year of a successful relationship, but I certainly wouldn't want to be followed around by cameras to have my photo taken and analyzed by strangers on the Internet. I am sure that anyone could find "evidence" of either myself or my beloved being, well, a *bitch* to the other. ;)

Anyway, so I hear ya, and I see it, too. Missing thoughtful fic lately, anyway. Got any good recs?

[rockinhamburger.livejournal.com]

First of all, thank you for giving me such a thoughtful, well-worded response. It really gives me hope!

I think that you're right about the misogyny--and misogyny is so ingrained in our society. Somehow, it is still acceptable to use words like "bitch," where racially or religiously-based slurs are not.

It's TOTALLY ingrained in society, but I think that's all the more reason it shouldn't be overlooked in fandom. We are mostly women. We should be helping each other, not knocking each other down.

It is still ok on some level to hate women, gays and overweight people (that last one's a whole other rant) and unfortunately, women are just as guilty as men about this.

YES, thank you, that is exactly right. The way overweight people are treated is disgusting. Women's rights and queer rights have made some strides in the last fifty years especially, but size acceptance is still practically unheard of, and I find that really disturbing. The mean-spirited, mainstream cruelty toward overweight people breaks my heart, and the worst part? Not gonna get better. Not soon, maybe not ever. Society is WAY too obsessed with being thin; it's shameful and horrible and eating disorders are climbing and starting in kids as young as FIVE YEARS OLD. This is a huge concern, and pop culture makes it so much fucking worse. But, as you said, that's a rant for another time. PM me, hon, we'll carry on this discussion for sure!

Back to the discussion at hand, I'm okay with Katy not being included in a story if it's set it an Alternative Universe. Obviously I understand that escapism you're talking about, and I certainly have read and enjoyed stories that did not have Katy in them. I don't even have a major problem with infidelity in fic AS LONG AS it's dealt with realistically. There's no such thing as a clean break when something like THAT happens, so if that's gonna be written? It better be as thoughtful and well-worded as your comment here is!

By the time I saw this, I think the most offensive of the posts must have been deleted--I saw a few screened posts--but where it crosses the line for me is when it starts speculating on the REAL motivations and actions of REAL people--especially in a fiction meme.

Well, that pisses me off even more! I brought up a valid concern (omg, I'm giving myself up; I was totally anon-ing) in re: to just that, the speculation of Katy's REAL actions in REAL life, and not only was I told to shut the fuck up, but I was called a yuppie ("I do not think that word means what you think it does..."), and now the comments were deleted. This is my exact fucking problem with the community. We don't need to address these things; let's just delete them and pretend they didn't happen. But whatever, I'm done. I really, really am.

I want to Quote For Truth absolutely everything you said about relationships in that last paragraph. Word, word, WORD.

Sure! I'll look through my recent reads tonight and send you some links :D

Thanks again, bb! You're so awesome!

[untamedfilly.livejournal.com]

I understand everything you say bb. I hope you don't stop writing in the fandom though. Your stories are made of glittery awesome and I would miss you so much. <3

[rockinhamburger.livejournal.com]

Hi sweetie!!! Thank you for your comment! I won't stop writing, I promise you that. People like you keep me wanting to do that, and I still very much enjoy writing and reading in this fandom. I'm not going away, I'm just putting up some boundaries to protect myself because it hurts too much. I'm workin' on my writing, and I'll let you know when my bigbang is finished.

Maybe I'll give you a sneak peek when it's finished.

[untamedfilly.livejournal.com]

Whatever you feel comfortable with bb! Oh please bb please!

[rawkenr0ll.livejournal.com]

lol welcome to bandom, pretty much. the wives/girlfriends in our fandom are like that, only sometimes they get hate mail sent to their houses in addition to just being written off in fic as whiny, selfish, temper-tantrum bitches.

fml.

[rawkenr0ll.livejournal.com]

also, how does next weekend sound? COFFEE. SLEEPOVER.

[rockinhamburger.livejournal.com]

yep. i did know that about fandom, but i hadn't seen it in my face until yesterday, and it really hit a nerve. i can't believe people send hate mail to the wives/girlfriends. wtffff!?

fml is right!

NEXT WEEKEND. DONE.

here via some link collection, I'm pretty sure

[pensnest]

Sing it. I haven't been following that particular community, but when I'm looking for AI stories I look for the not-Kradam stories first, and prefer AUs to canon-compliant, simply because I get so tired of "after the divorce". Of that relentless meme that the Evil Bitch Woman has to be got out of the way so that our One True Pairing Of Pure, Wonderful Boys can be together. Even the alternate version, that She's Nice, but Not Right For Him, gets tedious.

I do understand the impulse to slash Kris with Adam. I do. (It doesn't altogether work for me for a variety of reasons, of which Kris being married is just one.) But they're also adorable as *friends*, so why aren't there more stories writing them that way? And there are *so* many options for Adam that don't involve dissing the woman in the other guy's life. Gah.

I think it's possible that when the excitement has died down and this isn't a hot new happening fandom any more, a more grown-up attitude will come along. I've seen it in popslash—the "Ew, girlfriend!" thing has matured into "Kelly is hot", and instead of being a bitch who walks away from husband and child, or is divorced, or Dies Horribly, she's a real partner (and, ahem, actually involved in the slash). I think it's a lot healthier.

Re: here via some link collection, I'm pretty sure

[rockinhamburger.livejournal.com]

This comment is made of WIN!

Of that relentless meme that the Evil Bitch Woman has to be got out of the way so that our One True Pairing Of Pure, Wonderful Boys can be together. Even the alternate version, that She's Nice, but Not Right For Him, gets tedious.

So truuuue!

I also understand the desire to slash Kris and Adam. They're hot, they clearly very much like each other, but for fuck's sake, they're friends! It's almost as if some people think friendship isn't deep enough for these two, like their relationship means less if they aren't in love and having hot, hot sex. For me it's the opposite. It's so much cooler that these guys are honestly really good friends who genuinely like each other. They're clearly from different worlds in a lot of ways, but I LOVE that they found a common bond and enjoy each other's company.

And that's not to say I don't enjoy them as a couple in the right context, in the right universe. But as you say, there are so many options for Adam! Why have him chasing after a married man when he can have Lance Bass!?

I didn't recognize your username immediately, and now that I have I am fucking over the moon that you like MY writing when I fucking ADORE yours. Seriously, thank you so much for all the comments and love, it is so appreciated, you have no idea!!

:D :D :D

BTW, do you remember what link collection brought you to my journal? I want to give proper thanks to whoever's plugging me! (And preen a bit, ngl!)

Re: here via some link collection, I'm pretty sure

[pensnest]

I've always preferred writing about people who aren't the *best* of friends, although I appreciate that slash has a long history of 'buddy' shows etc. With my beloved popslash, Lance and Joey are completely BFFs and I've rarely written them as a pairing, just because their friendship is so adorable.

It's funny, I was briefly discussing RPS on a DreamWidth comm, and said there that I tend to want to slash Adam with other people who are canonically—or at least plausibly—gay, because it feels more respectful, somehow. When I started writing popslash, Lance hadn't come out, but even then, if I used someone who wasn't part of the group (or Backstreet) it was always someone gay or bi. I think it's because we haven't had a lot of canon gay characters, and it just somehow feels odd to ignore that fact and slash away merrily—whereas with characters who haven't made a definite statement one way or another (ie have neither come out nor got married) it just feels easier. I need more Thinky People to figure this out for me.

I found the link in the Fandomnews roundup, here. Of course, I recognised your name as that person who sent me happy-making feedback, so here I am!

Re: here via some link collection, I'm pretty sure

[rockinhamburger.livejournal.com]

I've always preferred writing about people who aren't the *best* of friends, although I appreciate that slash has a long history of 'buddy' shows etc.

Right. I totally hear that and feel the same way. Way back when I was reading and writing Harry Potter fanfiction, I would never have dreamed of writing Harry and Ron as a romantic coupling because they're best friends, and that's enough for their relationship. The same can be said for most of my forays into a fandom. I'll occasionally read a best-friends-fall-in-love-unexpectedly story, but mostly I'd rather read something with a little more chemistry and personality to it. And yet, Kris and Adam does turn my crank, and pretty much like no one else. When I read a good one with those two... I won't lie, it's a good feeling I get. But generally speaking, if you except the obvious love between Spock and Kirk in The Original Series of Star Trek, I just find that the best of friends don't necessarily make the best lovers.

And I completely understand that desire to pair someone from a RP fandom off with someone canonically gay. There's that great Adam/Dustin Lance Black story in the fandom that just kills me it's so good. And yours. Goddamnit, yours is AMAZING.

It's really kinda nice to have Adam, or whoever, with someone known as gay or bi!

Ooooh, that is such a surprise! I didn't think this would garner any attention outside of my little flist. It's pretty cool! :)

Thanks again for stopping by! That's really nice of you!

Re: here via some link collection, I'm pretty sure

[pensnest]

I love that Dustin Lance Black story too! As I said above, there are so many interesting possibilities for Adam (yay!). And thanks again for saying such nice things about Bouquet.

Friending you, trust that's okay. :-)

Re: here via some link collection, I'm pretty sure

[rockinhamburger.livejournal.com]

You're welcome, bb! It really is a great fic!

Totes okay! I've already friended you :)

[littlepunkryo.livejournal.com]

This is soo incredibly late, and you don't know me, but I was rereading old fic and came to see if you'd written any more lately and stumbled upon this. And I completely understand your feelings. It's why I've pretty much removed myself from the Kradam portion of fandom - because so much of loving Kradam now goes hand-in-hand with hating on Katy, and I just can't do it. She's never done anything to deserve getting hated on except marry someone they think belongs with Adam (even if a lot of people seem to have convinced themselves that she's this terrible, horrible person). This attitude actually almost ruined Kradam for me, sadly :( I'm glad that you're still writing though, and I hope you are happier now :D

[rockinhamburger.livejournal.com]

Hey there!! Thanks so much for commenting on this. You're not commenting late as far as I'm concerned; a comment anytime is a good one! And it really has cheered me up to know that many other people feel this way. It's a really unfortunate issue in this fandom, and I'm finding myself more and more troubled by the way in which Katy is written. It's so frustrating!

But I am a lot happier since the writing of that entry, especially to hear you enjoyed my fic enough to come back and look for more. I'm actually writing a Katy/Kris/Adam fic as we speak, and I'm a little bit afraid to post it. But it seems like some people would really be interested in reading it!

Seriously, thanks for the comment!

[blue-icy-rose.livejournal.com]

Okay, so I actually ended up here from (oh the irony) aianonlovefest - specifically Monster By Association and noticed you had said to feel free to friend you so I figured, why not, I'll check it out.

I'm so glad I did. Because the Brad and Neil love (and okay, the mention of a Kradamaty fic because that's one of my weak spots but I just can't seem to write it) was enough to make me want to friend you but I thought I'd still look at a few posts just to make sure fic wasn't the only reason I was here and this post? This post seals it for me because yes. I think that Katy's got to be pretty damn awesome because, well, look at Kris. He's this amazing guy that we've become fans of so why is it so hard to believe that he married someone that's an honest to goodness nice person?

I have fun including Katy in fics - whether it's a future fic or an AU or whatever and I can't tell you how annoyed I get when someone comments to tell me that they don't like Katy's involvement but otherwise it was a good story. Just...grrrrr, don't read then. So, I just felt like commenting here and letting you know that I'm so right there with you and that I really enjoy the way you handle Katy in fics (one that popped in my head was Soaked - can you tell I've been checking out old fics at that meme? - and I just grinned when I read how you handled that).

So, I hope you don't mind, but definitely friending you. :)

[rockinhamburger.livejournal.com]

Of course I don't mind, bb! As a matter of fact, this comment made my really unfortunate evening! I'm so happy to hear you enjoy my fics, and that we seem to have quite a lot in common. I'll be happy to friend you right back!

Thanks so much for introducing yourself! It's been so good to hear that other people find themselves frustrated with the subpar involvement of Katy in the fandom, and the overall treatment of her as a person. It's disturbing, but such a relief to hear that people care about this concern of mine :)

I have so much Brad and Neil love, so I'm sure you'll be pleased with my constant squeeing about them.

Again, I can't thank you enough for this awesome comment :)

Friended back!